Thursday, June 5, 2008

Things to Consider

A list of things to ponder.

1. The lumbar spine should have good mobility... "What did he just say?!"

2. The mobility/stability continuum is a good generalization and I really wish it was that simple, but it's not.

3. The thoracic spine: anatomical architecture limits it's mobility compared to the lumbar spine. T1 through T7 are "locked" into the ribcage, limiting their mobility. T8, 9, and 10 are attached to "false" ribs, increasing their mobility, and T11 and 12 are attached to "floating" ribs, giving them the greatest mobility of the thoracic spine. Plus the further up you go on the thoracic spine, there is a decrease in disc height, when compared to lower vertebrae, again decreasing some range of motion.

4. Is lumbar flexion always bad?

5. Many folks could probably use some good mobility work at the lumbar spine. "Has this guy fallen off his rocker!"

6. Little kids don't breath through their chest and shoulders. SERIOUSLY stop and think about that for a moment...

7. Irradiation works the other way as well. Hence why "stability" work may not... well... work.

8. Dr. Eric Cobb said something this weekend (Z-Health R-phase) that really made me think. "The best in the world are really the best at slowing down." He wasn't talking about deceleration.

9. We also had a good discussion at Z-Health regarding feet. The feet don't necessarily need a "good" arch, they just need to be able to move (mobility).

10. The stretch-shortening cycle (SSC) needs to be trained. Yes it is a reflex, and "just" happens, but it needs to be trained.

11. Specificity. It is a principle, not "just" a method.

12. Boston in 7. KG has earned it.

AS

62 comments:

Anonymous said...

Aaron,

I asked Brett Jones this, but he wasn't familiar with the first program so he really couldn't answer.

If you are familiar with Scott Sonnon's Intuflow joint mobility program, I was wondering how it compares to Z-Health, especially since Sonnon states that a lot of the Z-Health material is based on his program?

Thanks for your reply.

RyanH

Aaron Schwenzfeier said...

Hi Ryan,

I do know Dr. Cobb did some work with Sonnon. I believe there are some similarities, but I am not very familiar with the details of Intuflow, but have been curious to learn more.

I would be curious to know if Sonnon's system is as heavily based on neurophysiology as Z-Health.

Interesting you brought this up, as I have wondered the same.

Mike T Nelson said...

Good thoughts Aaron! Great to see you again at the Z Health Cert. Good times.

At the risk of shameless self promotion, I went through similar lumbar mobility thoughts at

http://miketnelson.blogspot.com/
2007/08/lumbar-movement-and-z-
health-comment.html

What word(s) would you use in place of stability?

Go KG!!
Rock on
Mike N

Anonymous said...

Here's Scott Sonnon's take on it (guess you have to copy & past):

http://irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=194349&p=227323&hilit=eric#p227323

RyanH

Mike T Nelson said...

Just my 2 cents and for the record I drink lots of Z Health Kool Aid and I have done through level 4 (therapy based, bodywork). I am not overly familiar with Sonnon's work other than just the basics and I don’t have any direct experience with it.
I know they worked together, but I don't know much beyond that.
Dr. Cobb is trained as a chiropractor, but I have only seen him adjust someone once in all the privates that I seen with him. We don't learn any chiro stuff in the certs (currently we haven't). There is a fair amount of applied kinesiology though and much of it appears voodoo like, but there is a reason based on neurophysiology for it.

In every profession there will always be some that are better than others for a whole host of reasons; so there are Z trainers that are better than others. Many times this depends on experience, Z level of cert and educational background.

Dr. Cobb has more reps in (experience) with the system than anyone so far, so I would hope he is the best; although as others get more and more experience they should surpass him.
Even with just R Phase alone, virtually anyone that goes through the cert can do things that most trainers can not in the same period of time. You have to be able to change your current belief system many times though to fully understand the entire system.
Level 4 is currently the only places where direct bodywork is taught and I think there are only about 45 level 4 people currently. Although, remember that bodywork is not always needed when the body is given the correct stimulus!
Hope that helps a bit
Mike N

Aaron Schwenzfeier said...

I do like the word coordination. I think stability could/used to be the right word, but I think now it is thought of as: "to not allow movement". Maybe I am wrong...

I would like to know more specifics about Intuflow and am curious about the dislike...

Really anything that focuses on quality of movement is probably pretty good.

Ryan-
Do you know anything about Intuflow?

Anonymous said...

I actually have the DVD set (haven't watched the 2nd DVD- advanced versions that can be done with mini clubbells). He talks very little about neurological enhancement other than increased proprioception from the increased joint mobility. The movements start sort of choppy and proceed to more fluid movements.
His main focus seems to be the restoration of the joint because of increase in synovial fluid from the mobility work.
I guess its like he says on the irongarm comments- he views it from an exercise standpoint instead of a rehab one.
I will say I think it is excellent for what it is intended. It serves as the basis for his CST program (1 of 3 parts).
I was looking for a comparison of the two (mainly the differences), since I am not very familiar with Z-Health and from what I understand it has a much larger neurological emphasis than Intuflow.

RyanH

Aaron Schwenzfeier said...

Thanks for the info Ryan,

I know the Z-Health products do not go into the detail that the courses do.

Z-Health takes the approach of restoring and re-educating motor control around all joints (R-Phase). Could be looked at from a rehabilitative standpoint, but basically level 1 builds on to level 2 (I-phase) and continues through Levels 3 and 4 (theraputic), as more of a performance system. Really comes down to a system for improving movement from a both a kinesiological and neurological standpoint.

In the end, all these different perspectives (Intuflow, Z-Health, FMS) come to the same bottom line: quality of movement is of utmost importance.

Aaron Schwenzfeier said...

To clarify myself on the different Z-health levels:

Level 1 (R-phase)
Level 2 (I-phase, more integrated movements)
Level 3 (S-phase, I believe, is sports performance based)
Level 4 (theraputic)

Brett Jones said...

Aaron,
Yes the lumbar spine needs mobility.

Mobility/Stability trail - to refer to it as a "nice attempt" is bordering on rude since the person that suggested it is far smarter and far better degreed etc... than either of us- Answer me this - What happens if the foot pronates?

See my blog for another perspective on Thoracic mobility.

Lumbar flexion under load is bad and there is quite a bit of data backing this up. Lumbar flexion as a range of motion the lumbar spine should maintain - sure.

Belly breathing and diaphragm function - yes.

Irradiation - depends on your goals.
If I am looking to deadlift a max attempt or Military press a heavy kettlebell - irradiation works and works well.
If I am looking to flow through a marial arts kata or throw a baseball - then the coordination aspect becomes dominate and you don't have time to irradiate nor would you want to.

"Slowing down" - "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" is a shooting maxim to emphasise control and precision over "quick trigger" or quick draw - is that the type of "slow" you are referring to?

Feet - arches and mobility -
Yes the feet need mobility.
However - what happens when the person who normally has an arch standing or unweighted cannot maintain that arch weighted or under the load of walking, running etc...

Training plyos - yes.

Specificity - yes.

On your post above - yes - athletes need to think of what they are patterning at all times.

Aaron Schwenzfeier said...

Brett,

I agree, that comment probably came across rude, and the person who developed it is in a league of their own... I just feel it is a great generalization, and I probably typed before I thought. Sometimes I feel that the folks who use it on a daily basis with clients and athletes get them thinking about the parts instead of the whole. My personal experience with following the continuum made things very "choppy"... but again that is in my own, sometimes odd, mind. Just thinking of different perspectives sometimes...

What happens when the foot pronates? Are you speaking from a biomechanical perspective such as calcaneal eversion, talus adduction/internal rotation, tibial internal rotation, femoral internal rotation, adduction, etc.; pelvic rotation, tilt, axial torque...

In bipedal standing or gait cycle?

Anterior weight shift, plantar flexor reflex,...? Muscular activity?

Absolutely agree on the lumbar flexion under load.

Irradiation: tension induces tension, relaxation induces relaxation. Some athletes need to learn how to relax through movement. Inter- and intra- muscular coordination. I think too much tension can at times inhibit learning of good movement.

He (Dr. Cobb) was referring to the ability of athletes to take their movements and slow them way down, neural mapping with no "skips" in their movement. Think: shadow boxing at very slow speeds, working on skills.

Arches/No arches: again that was the conversation and what was said. Some athletes have entirely flat feet and never seem to have issues.

Very good points you bring up, thanks again!

Brett Jones said...

Aaron,
On the mobility/stability idea - as you noted the cascade of things that happens when the foot pronates just from a biomechanical perspective - as the foot loses it's position is almost has to change the link above it.
the foot should maintain it's arch (whatever that may be) in order for the ankle to do it's job (we need 30 degrees of ankle dorsiflexion to Jog) - so the characteristic of the foot during a jog would be stability (or to coordinate the massive loading of 4 times bodyweight into the foot) while the ankle moves the 4 times bodyweight energy effeciently into the body/jogging mechanics.
No this does not encapsulate all that is happening during the gait cycle from neurological perspective etc...but it can be a beginning point and start people who have never thought beyond the site of pain to look elsewhere.
Didn't mean to be a jerk with the rude comment but saying "nice attempt" hit me wrong. Your odd mind looking from different perspectives is great.

Irradiation - as i said - it depends on the goal. Sometimes tension is the goal.

slow motion training - absolutely!

Arches - when "normal" (whether that be flat or arched) changes the issues develop. if someone is flat and stays that way - probably no worries. When someone has an arch and then they lose it under load - issues result.

Great points yourself

Aaron Schwenzfeier said...

Brett,

What methods have you found to be successful in working with someone who excessively pronates under load?

For our athletes, tension is key for strength exercises, but for the Olympic lifts, things get a little trickier. Lots of cues, positioning, drills, basically just lots of practice in which tension has to be turn off and on very quickly. Tension is very good in the weightroom, but when athletes get out on the field they need to know how to relax just as well as tensing up. I've seen many athletes try to "muscle" speed and agility movement. Makes for slow, ugly movement and increase risk of injury. Becomes key to be able to coordinate tension and relaxation, hence coordination. We want elasticity.

I agree irradiation depends on the goal. From what I have seen, lack of tension isn't usually the issue.

Good stuff Brett, Thanks!

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Ритими с рыданиями кинулась в хижину, выбрала подходящую дубинку и, не глядя для мужа, вручила ему четырехфутовую палицу. Не могу [url=http://sokakofinupaci.dousetsu.com/02-2010/intim-znakomstva-v-tule.html]Интим знакомства в туле[/url] я для это смотреть, сказала она, плюхаясь в выше гамак. Я обняла ее, стараясь утешить. Не будь она такой расстроенной, я желание рассмеялась. Ни в малейшей степени не встревоженная неверностью Этевы, Ритими боялась, что пир может закончиться серьезной потасовкой. Глядя на то, наравне орали товарищ для друга пара разгневанных мужчин, и на возбужденную реакцию толпы, я тоже непроизвольно прониклась тревогой. Ударь меня по голове, потребовал взбешенный пришелец. Ударь, коли ты мужчина. Увидим, посмеемся ли мы вместе. Увидим, пройдет ли ярость. Мы оба разозлены, кричал Этева с нахальной самоуверенностью, взвешивая в руке набруши. Мы должны умиротворить выше гнев. Затем без дальнейших разговоров он крепко врезал сообразно выбритой тонзуре противника. Из раны хлынула кровь. Она медленно растекалась по лицу мужчины, пока не залила его непрерывный красной маской. Ноги его дрогнули и едва было не подкосились. Однако он устоял.
Ударь меня, и мы вновь станем друзьями, воинственно гаркнул Этева, заставив смолкнуть разгоряченную толпу. Опершись на палицу, он подставил [url=http://sokakofinupaci.dousetsu.com/znakomstva-mogileve/07-2010.html]Астрахань только секс знакомства[/url] в ожидании голову. Удар противника для мгновение ошеломил Этеву; кровь ручьем потекла сообразно бровям и ресницам, заставив его закрыть глаза. Тишину взорвали вопли мужчин, и целый хор одобрительных выкриков потребовал, для они ударили благоприятель друга вторично раз. Со смешанным чувством ужаса и восхищения я следила ради стоящими лицом к лицу противниками. Их мускулы были напряжены, вены на шеях вздулись, глаза сверкали, как омытые яростным потоком крови. Их лица, замершие презрительными красными масками, не выдавали боли, если они, наподобие два раненых петуха" стали кружить друг насупротив друга. Тыльной стороной ладони Этева стер кровь, мешавшую ему видать, и сплюнул. Подняв палицу, он с силой опустил ее для голову соперника, и тот беззвучно рухнул для землю. Цокая языками, с помутневшими глазами, зрители разразились ж кими воплями. Я не сомневалась, сколько поединку пришел прекращение, если всетаки шабоно наполнилось их оглушительными криками. Я взялась за руку Ритими и удивилась, что ее залитое слезами [url=http://sokakofinupaci.dousetsu.com/12-2010/11-2010.html]Интим знакомства пензы[/url] лицо хранило довольное, едва радостное выражение. Она пояснила, который, судя сообразно тону издаваемых мужчинами выкриков, их уже не волновали нанесенные вначале оскорбления. Все, который их интересовало, это лицезрение могущества хекур каждого из соперников. Тогда не было ни победителей, ни побежденных.

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